GEORGE McCLURE covertly taped phone call with SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR f/k/a "DAVID HOAR"
MICHAEL GOLD AND SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR f/k/a "DAVID HOAR"
DATE OF CONVERSATION: 06/11/2008 DISK1D20
LOCATION: TELEPHONE CALL
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: SHERIFF ST. JOHNS COUNTY
GEORGE MCCLURE: ST AUGUSTINE REAL ESTATE ATTORNEY
PLEASE NOTE COMMISSIONER TOM MANUEL DID NOT PARTICPATE ON THE PHONE CALL
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Are you there, George ?
GEORGE MCCLURE: David.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. I called him, and he
called me back. I left him a message -- Tom
Manuel. And I says, "Hey, Tom, how are you
doing?" And he tried to act a little normal.
And I said, "Tom, I just got off the phone
with Jim Casey in Jacksonville." And you
could just hear the air go out. And I never thought I'd ever hear him
humble. He said, "David," he says, "I'm so
sorry I let you down. There's so much we
could have done in the county together." He
said, "I got weak and I fucked up." And I said, "You know, Tom," I said,
"There's only been one perfect person that has walked this earth, and you ain't talking to him. There's always redemption and there's always forgiveness." I said, "Right now, you've got to do the right thing."
And he actually says, "Well, you know, what should I do, David?" And I says, Well, Tom, you know your ass is going to get indicted, and you know your ass is going to probably have to do some time." And at that point he broke in and he said, "David, I hope I can count on you to stand next to me as a character witness at some point." And I said, "Hey, not a problem, Tom." I said, "I think you should
resign, because the minute you're indicted the governor is going to remove you, and the county needs to move on." He was very humble, he was very apologetic, and all the steam and all the bravado had all gone. You know, he – you know, it's just so sad. It was really a sad
conversation. He's got a daughter, a young daughter, and he's got a wife, and it's nothing to be great -- it's nothing that we can gloat about, but it is what it is. It was pure corruption. And I'm thinking here tonight, I'm going, you know, why didn't he use a buffer for God's sake. I would have at least had my brother-in-law pick the package up, you know.
GEORGE MCCLURE: The bag man.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You know, I mean, he didn't even use the bag man.
And, you know, I tell you who I'm more pissed off at. I'm pissed off at two groups of people in this community. One group are the -- and I like Phil McDaniel, don't get me wrong. I love Phil. Phil is a friend of
mine. I'm tired of these one-issue people like Phil, like the Hamiltons, like Cathy Brown. All these one-issue people, if you're an elected official, if you happen to believe in what their one issue is –
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: They'll get in bed with Ghengis Khan.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And the other group that I'm just pissed at is the media, and I'm going to tell them about my ass just the first chance I get, that, you know -- and maybe now is the time that we can elevate this discussion in this county and stop with the back slapping and the high-fiving on the commission, and all this secret squirrel shit with all these groups, these commissions -- on this commission. And, you know, and Ben Rich out there pumping Ken Bryant. Well, Ben, you gave us Tom, so why don't you sit this one out.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And I just hope, you know -- and I told Wanchick, I said, "Michael," I said, "Now is the time to assert yourself. You need to tell those commissioners that you're going to run this fucking county and close their offices up and get them all one office and they can share it and put their name on a (inaudible) –
GEORGE MCCLURE: (Laughter.)
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And nothing of this five princes, you know, walking around the county building. I said –
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, did you say that Tom's wife called Ben Rich the night that --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: That they took him down?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: It may not have been "the night," but she called him a night or two later.
GEORGE MCCLURE: I wonder why.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Ostensibly, ostensibly, because she knew he was in the federal system.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And, what, wanted advice how to handle it or something?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. She didn't have any idea how to handle it.
And, you know, I was going to do something with the Sunshine.
When Jim called me tonight, I had to make a split-second decision pretty much, and he was --
GEORGE MCCLURE: You mean Jim Bryant?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: No, Jim Casey.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Oh, Jim Casey, the SAC.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. When Jim called me tonight, I -- I was gonna -- you know, he gave me the opportunity, George, and I just
let it pass, you know.
GEORGE MCCLURE: It's too late now anyway.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Well, not only that, it would turn a chicken salad case into a chicken shit case
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You know, and all –
GEORGE MCCLURE: That's like having some guy indicted for murder and you want to try and get him pinned with a parking ticket.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. You want to get his wife pinned with -- you know, and it's kind of like, how much can this county stand.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I mean, it's going to be bad enough, our chairman
this guy that, you know -- and the media. I don't understand
it. I don't understand how anybody in their right mind -- and a lot of people said -- the minute they met him they said, oh, he's a crook. He's going to jail. A lot of people said that, but a hell of a lot of
people said, including the media, hey, this guy's onto something. How the Margo Popes of the world could have had more than a 15-minute conversation with that guy and not have figured him out is beyond me.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely beyond me. The day I met him, when I was the police chief, I said, this guy's dirty. And that's just my intuitive gut, and -- but there's not going to be any nonsense about –
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, what was it that – that compelled you to feel like you needed to give him a call today? Was there something going on that it was like the time to --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: To give who a call?
GEORGE MCCLURE: To give Tom a call.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Well, I was talking to Jim about it -- Casey.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And I said, Jim, I feel compelled to call him. I mean, he's out here in no-man's land, and I said, What do you think? And he says, "Well," he said, "David, that's up to you." He said, "I
don't know what to tell you. I mean, he knows what he's up against. You're not going to tell him -- you can't tell him anything that he doesn't know." So I don't -- I can't really explain that. I just felt compelled to reach out to him. I guess because, George, he's got to
make -- this is a very delicate situation. See, if he stays in office, if he stays in office, for another, say, four weeks until he's indicted, that's going to cost the county about $150,000 in a special election.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Now, that's chicken feed, I know. But if he resigns this week, there's enough time for somebody to come up, and that's where we've got to put our thinking caps on. If he resigns this week or early
next week, somebody could walk in with a $3600 check and sign up for that district race. But I don't really know why, to be honest with you. I just felt like I needed to.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I didn't have a long discussion with him about anything. He's extremely remorseful, obviously. He's extremely disappointed.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Extremely remorseful he got
caught.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That's my wife walking by.
(Speaking to his wife, he says, GEORGE MCCLURE.)
You know, but -- but I think he needed it. You know, you got to remember, I live in a worst-case scenario world, and here' my
worst-case scenario, is he kills his wife and then himself tonight.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That's the world I live in.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. My -- I'm sorry, but my
worst-case scenario is he comes down and kills me.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. Well, they don't know anything about you guys.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You know. I mean, you guys -- yours and Bruce's role is completely covered up. I mean, I would -- you know, and I don't know that it will be uncovered.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: But, personally, he's going to get indicted and he's going to plead. I mean, he ain't fight- -- they got his ass
dead to rights. He's going to plead guilty.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, he wouldn't have been free this long if he hadn't confessed, to some degree.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: He did confess.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: He did confess.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And so, you know, the indictment -- here. Here's the guy's tape. Let's get an indictment, let's go.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: But, you know, my only anxiety was that I know that they were -- you know, out of Arlington Expressway, were seeing
whether they could get anything else. I mean, they never said anything to me about it, and the only inference that I drew from that was the fact that he didn't go down that night, is --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Is that he was cooperating. And I don't know whether there was any -- any merit or any meat to what he was giving them.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: There wasn't. Jim basically said that he didn't have shit. He tried to say there was some lobbyist out there that
could be corrupt and that he's not the only one doing this, he said, but it was just a big empty bag.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I'm not so sure -- I think with the right people asking questions -- because I know Paul McCormack's dirty. I mean, that's who I wanted to see go down with him. And -- but he didn't have much. I mean, nobody trusted Tom.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Nobody -- nobody – you know, Tom liked to pass himself off as everybody loves me and -- Dan Davis and Marco Rubio and Adam Hasner. And those guys didn't like Tom. He just forced himself on
them.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. I saw the invitation to the Adam Hasner --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah, I know.
GEORGE MCCLURE: thing, and I thought, I'm glad my name's not on there.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. I know.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, I had heard, I guess in your call to Bruce, that the -- that the FBI was coming down to interview staff tomorrow?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yes. Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And is that what precipitated like, it's going to get out or something?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. That's right. Jim said --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Because I'll tell you, I already got a call from Ed Brunson, who is close with Cyndi, to say, Oh, my God, it's
going down, and, you know, it's going to be the chairman and it's --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. It's going to start. It's going to start getting out.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. So it is out there, big time, right now.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. It's going to go -- it's going -- and let me tell you, what my position is on it is that -- is that there's
still an active federal investigation. Tom Manuel is the target. Let's see where it goes from here. Now, I'll go off the record a little
bit, but yours and Bruce's involvement is completely undercover.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I mean, that's not out there. You know, it may -- it may never have to be revealed.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: If he pleads guilty and he goes away, it's a done issue.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, I tell you what, I – you know, I'm not your lawyer, but I am your friend, and my only recommendation to you is that, you know, I know how much you love this county and how much a part of your life it is, and how much you want to see that the right thing gets done for it, but I would be just really careful, David, about, you know,
any discussion, you know, particularly like in front of Michael Wanchick or whatever about, you know, we got to be careful about the timing on, you know, who qualifies for the election, et cetera.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right, right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Because, you know, we may have -- all have our own opinions about --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: About who'd be a good candidate or a bad candidate, but nobody is ever going to divorce you from the office that you serve, and they're going to say, what the hell is the Sheriff doing, you
know, trying to play king maker on the timing of this stuff and --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: When it comes out and --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And who gets appointed. There is no good outcome for you -
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: No, no.
GEORGE MCCLURE: On that.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And I'm really -- I don't really have any involvement in that at all, as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm concerned, however it comes out, it comes out. I mean, I don't know -- I don't know
how it's going to happen. I do know that I -- I hold out hope that
it's going to change the tenor of local -- of local government.
GEORGE MCCLURE: What wound up having – what wound up happening in terms of having Wanchick come over? What did you feel like needed to happen with Michael, and what does he know so far?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Well, Michael doesn't know -- Michael's getting ready to go to work tomorrow morning and there's going to be federal agents talking to employees.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And so Mike needed to know -- and all Mike knows is exactly – is exactly this: Mike, you're going to get a call, I mean, tomorrow morning, and there's going to be federal law enforcement.
They're going to be coming into your shop, and they're going to be conducting interviews related to an investigation involving Tom Manuel.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That's it. I mean, that's exactly what's happening. And -- and beyond that, you know, that's all -- that's the only need to know he had.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And, in fact, I asked Jim Casey that question.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I said, Jim, I said, you know -- you know, because I'm going to tell you, they show up tomorrow with their badges, I mean, employees will start scrambling for attorneys. I mean, it will be a hell of a disruption.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, the first thing they're going to do is figure out do I need a lawyer, and then the second thing they're going to say is, I wonder what Margo Pope's telephone number is.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. Right, right. And, basically, so Mike, you know, that was -- and Jim agreed with me. He said -- Casey said, yeah, just give him some heads up. I'll have my people check in with him.
I mean, you know, that would be – that would be kind of -- that would be kind of –
GEORGE MCCLURE: SOP.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I couldn't do that to Mike.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I mean, you know, that wouldn't have been fair. I mean, hell -- and I told him, hell, you may get questioned.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response). Well, I tell you that my perception of Mike is that he is a really good asset for the county.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: He's a great asset.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. He's a professional, and, you know, he's kind of able to come in from the outside in a way that he's got no –
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely.
GEORGE MCCLURE: No competing loyalties where somehow he's going to be tainted with anything.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely. And, you know, I've -- it's just -- it's going to be -- it's going to be interesting. And if Tom does the right thing and -- you know, he's going to go away into the sunset and
hopefully we can rebuild. I mean –
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, I tell you, you know, Michael called all of the commissioners and felt like he needed to tell them what was
happening tomorrow.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: So I wind up getting a call
from Ed Brunson who said, Oh, my God, you know, do you know what's happening, and there are going to be indictments, and dah, dah, dah, dah. And, of course, he's particularly close with Cyndi Stevenson.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And so I'm sure it must have been Cyndi who called him.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Randy Brunson or Ed?
GEORGE MCCLURE: No, Ed.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I don't know Ed.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Ed's the guy who helped some of the guys who did Aberdeen and Durbin Crossing and some other stuff.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Oh, okay.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And he's a nice guy, and straight-up fellow.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Okay.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And, you know, he has been in the development business for a while, and he, you know, tries to facilitate stuff.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I think Mike did the right thing. I mean, he's got a you know, I mean, it's really curtains up, George. I mean, the commission, you know, the – you know, Mike's got an obligation there to let them know that, you know, we got some heavy -- I mean, we're 12 hours away from heavy storm waters sitting out in the county, and the worst's going to be -- I mean, it's out there. It's going to be out there. And, you know, I ought to let – in fact, in fact, I gave my fellow constitutional officers a heads up. I didn't go into any detail. I just said, look, I don't want you guys to get caught flatfooted, but here's what you're going to be hearing in the morning. I mean, I think Mike did the right thing on that. I mean, he did the only thing he could do.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: But, I mean, it's out there. It's going to be out there, there's no sugar coating. A lot of people are going to want details that –
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. There are going to be a whole lot of people, particularly the people who have a steno pad in their hand and a
deadline to meet, who are going to be interested.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. And, you know – and they're not going to have the details that you and I and Bruce have.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And they're not going to get them. I mean, it doesn't serve anybody's purpose to go into how this came about and -- you know, I was thinking tonight, as I sat here in my living room, about you and
me bumping each other at Barnes & Noble that day. It was like you could almost know what was on both of our minds.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I don't know if you said it first or I said it first, but I said, you know, that conversation we had in the restaurant, that's been bothering me. I mean, and that was really the beginning of the damn thing.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. Well, I think -- --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I think, I tell you, to me, the true hero in all of this, if you really want my opinion --
GEORGE MCCLURE: I'm sorry. You're breaking up there. Say it again.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I said, if you really want to know the -- if you really want to know, the fact of the matter is, the one guy out of this whole thing that comes in as a hero for me is Bruce.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. I tell you what, I told Bruce the other day, I said, I never would have been able to carry this off. I mean, he was just -- you know, from every indication, and he had nothing to gain and
everything to lose.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: He had nothing to gain and everything to lose. He did it because it was the right thing to do. And I told him that on the phone, I admire the shit out of him for it.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. I mean, I had said, can you imagine what would happen if you introduced this concept and Tom says, you dirty son-of-a-bitch. You will never get a vote from me in St. Johns County.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: You're history here.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right, right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: I'm not that way.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right, right, right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Dah, dah, dah. And he would have been -- he never would have been able to work in St. Johns County again. And as it is, I got to tell you, that I have anxieties about myself and him in terms
of our effectiveness. I mean, what do you do when, you know, some other land use attorney can't get it) says, I don't know if you want to hire him because everybody's afraid to talk to him because they're afraid he's wearing a wire.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Let me tell you something, let me tell you something: First of all, I don't think it will ever get out who was actually the players.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And second of all, second of all, if it ever does come out, I think you're -- I think just the opposite. I think what you're going to hear is if you want the most ethical, straight-up guy in town, go see Bruce Robbins or George McClure. That's my --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, I hope you're right. It is that -- you know, if my reputation is, I get it for you by playing the game the right way and playing by the rules --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: George, you have --
GEORGE MCCLURE: I'll take that all day long.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Hey, look it. You have -- you've got where you've got today on your character and your reputation. You and I -- you and I ain't good enough.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Hey, speak for yourself.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: No, you know, you had a sterling reputation going into this thing and, quite frankly, I mean, you know, I admire the shit out of you because there was no -- there was no win upside for you at all to even be involved in this.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, you know, it's kind of a backhanded compliment, but it became apparent that -- that Tom wasn't going to say anything if I were there.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And it's kind of like Bruce had to handle it on his own --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: -- because, you know, Tom would drop things now and then to me about saying, well, you're not really in the inner circle yet and if I just –
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Knew I could trust you and all that kind of stuff.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: But he clearly didn't think that I was on the -- you know, willing to cooperate with somebody on the take, and you now what, I'm glad he thought that.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: I'll take that as a compliment.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely. And, again, George, there was no upside in it for you to be involved in it to the extent that you were, and it's never going to go to trial, which means --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: -- Bruce is never going to have to testify, which means the full story -- now, at some point down the road somebody
could do a Freedom of Information Act request, three or four years down the road, and find out -- well, they probably couldn't even get a CI's name that way. But I think what's very important here is your involvement and Bruce's involvement needs to not be on the table for anybody to know.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Good. Well, I will tell you that I was a little anxious that Michael was in your house when you were talking to me
tonight because --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: He did not know who you were.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Oh, okay.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: No, no, no. Something – I could tell that when you were on the phone.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And if you remember, I never called you George.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And I could tell by your tone of your voice it was like, holy shit. He had no -- I must have gotten 10 phone calls. He had no idea who you were.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely not. And I think we -- I truly think that, for some of the reasons you indicated, I don't think we need to put it out there.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I mean, it's nobody's business. And even when it's all said and done, you, me, Joe Bolante and Bruce Robbins in Arlington are the only people that know that.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right. Well, I tell you this, and I know I said it before, but I want to be -- I mean, I just want to be so clear about this thing, and that is that I think that, you know, it's kind of like the – you know, the fact that Karen Stern had strong support from me last election wound up being turned against her, you know, even though I think that she was a very ethical person who tried to do the right thing, and it should have been simply a matter of, do you agree with her votes or not, and not all this painting of her that they tried to do, including The Record, by the way.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely.
GEORGE MCCLURE: But what I was going to say was
that I think that the best thing that you or I could do for the future of public governance in St. Johns County --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Is to what?
GEORGE MCCLURE: Is to let this thing take its course.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And, you know, whether there's time for the election or not time for the election, I think that things will sort out. And what's going to be so critical is --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: They will.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. And this place is going to be in an uproar for months, and there are going to be -- I think that people are going
to look for islands of stability, of people who are able to say, "We're going to get through this. What we need to do is pay attention to the facts. Get rid of this guy, get rid of the rhetoric in our public
discourse, and get down to the facts, and stop ripping each other up and calling each other names and giving people like this an opportunity to get elected." And that means not -- you know, not taking sides. And if the governor calls and asks you, between A and B who do you like,
you tell him and tell him strongly. But I think if the -- if people get the perception that there was any political Motivation to this, then that's -- the fact that Tom Manuel is a crook --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Is going to get lost in the, oh, the Sheriff was out to get him --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And the Sheriff wants to get his person appointed because he's mad about his budget or whatever.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And you want to know the funny thing about it is, the irony of it all is Tom was my biggest supporter on my budget.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. Well, yeah, that is -- that is ironic. But, you know, likely, when you were talking to me in front of Wanchick and said,
yeah, we don't want to get so-and-so or we don't want to get so-and-so, it's like, you know, if I were Wanchick, I would convene a special meeting of the Board of County Commissioners as quickly as possible, and
then say, I want to report that our staff has been interviewed, here's what's happening --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Dah, dah, dah, dah, and it's my duty to inform you, and is there any action you'd like to take. And he can find out whether or not Tom resigns or shows up at that meeting --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Or whatever he does.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: But I don't know. But I do have --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That's exactly the way I think it's going to go down.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. But, you know, in terms of who sorts out, you and I have to work with whoever gets elected, good, bad, or indifferent.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Exactly.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And I -- Mary Kohnke may have voted against everything I ever presented to her, but you know what, she wouldn't take a nickel.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And, you know, that's okay. If that's -- if that's who people want, that's the Democratic process. As long as we get
rid of the crook, let the Democratic process run its course.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And here's the other thing, George. I'll give you an example. When I was police chief, they wouldn't put David Daniels' picture up.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Okay. Remember the police chief Daniels and all the problems we had back in the early '80s?
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And I made them -- I told my staff, we need to put his picture up. "Oh, hell, no, he was only here for a year and a half" -- because it's -- you don't want to just put the good guys up. You want to put the bad guys up because this whole thing is going to serve a higher purpose.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Hey, last I checked, you can see President Nixon's face on the list of presidents in the United States.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That is exactly right, and you did that to remind yourself that you can recover from bad times. So maybe at the end of the day, with all of this stuff with Tom, it will get past -- you know, it could -- my personal opinion is it is going to unify this county. I think people are going to start getting involved. And you're exactly right: We let this thing go -- look it, you know, we let the
thing go on its next chain of events, if we wind up with a dadgum Mary Kohnke again or a Phyllis Abetillo or a --
GEORGE MCCLURE: I don't think Phyllis is going to win.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You know, I mean, so be it. I mean, you know, it's like I said, Joel and I were talking about it today, because he's the only one I can talk to about it, I said, Joel, I said, you know, Tom was our biggest supporter in our budget. We were getting ready to have lunch on Friday to talk and, you know -- and he was going to be my voice piece up there helping me with my budget. I can tell you this: I don't think – I don't think it will ever get tagged as a political issue, for a couple of different reasons. No. 1, it wasn't.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: If it was -- now, if I had tried to get Ben and Cyndi on a Sunshine violation, then you open yourself up to that criticism.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I don't think it will ever -- that will never happen. You'll never hear that. I've actually sat here and thought about
the citizen that says, well, hell --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: -- how did that happen on the Sheriff's watch. I mean, how come the FBI had to get involved? I may at some point have to tell people that I'm the one hat went to the FBI at some point early on.
But I personally think people are going to run for cover. I think, like you said, people are going to look for strong leadership. I think we just got to do a real close analysis of this county. There's been way too much apathy and way too much joking.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, and I tell you, it will change the discussion, because -- well, it's kind of like, I remember going to see Judge
Watson when I was practicing law with Paul Martz, and was just frustrated and felt like we weren't succeeding and -- you know, as his partner. And, you know, I went and sat down with Dick and said, gosh, you know, I'm just really upset. And -- but, you know, Paul, I know he puts every nickel in the drawer, you know. There's no hidden deals. There's nothing else. He's honest with every penny. And Watson looked at me and said, "So, isn't that the way it's supposed to be?" And it's kind of like, you know what, the assumption should be that the first criterion is that our politicians are honest.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yep.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And before we talk about anything else and all the other things, you know what, let's look into their heart and check their character, because the first thing is, you know, is this a person I trust to be fair and impartial and do the right thing and really be someone who's a leader, or am I picking somebody who's just an egotistical SOB.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right, or are you picking somebody like Ben Rich who was still so mad at the fire department because they held signs for Bruce Maguire and Karen Stern, he still couldn't bring himself to vote for the
MSBU on two -- I mean, holds a grudge for so long, and then you're exactly right. It's about hon- -- and I think, I really believe
at the end of the day that there's going to be some great upsides to this. And I can tell you, everybody has handled themselves -- I had a little bit of a testy conversation with the SAC up there earlier -- what's today?
GEORGE MCCLURE: Today is Wednesday.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Wednesday. I think, it was yesterday. You know, I really was --
GEORGE MCCLURE: With whom?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: With the SAC.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Oh. With Casey?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Jim, yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Have you met Jim yet?
GEORGE MCCLURE: No.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Great guy. And I said, Jim, I said, you know, I personally had a real problem having Tom sitting there yesterday
and --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Being able to vote on something so important as an MSBU that is gonna -- I mean, that's a major shift in policy.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Sure.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And here's this guy sitting up there --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Front page of the paper today.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. And Jim and I didn't -- we -- hey, we agreed to disagree. I said, you know, Jim, I said, you know, what's the answer for that, because somebody at some point may say, well, you took him into custody on this night and then you released him. Well, while he was released, he imposed a tax on the citizens. I mean -- or whatever the case may be. And -- but I don't think anybody will ever connect the
dots. But the bottom line is, is here's the good news, George, for us, here's the good news: That's all they found.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, here's what I was worried about, David. I'm glad you said that, but -- and Lord knows, at my two years of prosecuting in a county that only had 15,000 people and a part-time job from '76 to '78, doesn't exactly make me a law enforcement professional, but if they were coming down to interview staff, then I could only infer that they were coming to say, okay, here's my list of particular projects for particular people.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Did you receive any communication from Commissioner Manuel that pressured you to achieve a certain result in the staff report or whatever, because if he didn't have anything, they got nobody else to talk to. If they're coming to staff, it's not cause the staff has done anything wrong; it's because they're trying to follow up to see whether or not --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Actually, actually --
GEORGE MCCLURE: What he told them.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Actually, it's going to be more like -- it will be more things like address -- it will be more -- you know, it's not going to be -- I know it's not going to be that, because I don't think it ever got to that. Jim had mentioned it's more of administerial. They got to get like -- what's the word that he used -- like his personnel file.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Oh, so to get stuff to prove that he was a public official.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah, that --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Those things that would establish the necessary elements of the crime?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. The investigation is over with, George. I mean, they're not --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: They're not coming down here tomorrow --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah, it's kind of like – I used to have a checklist when I prosecuted. Let me see: I've got to prove venue --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: I got to prove this, I got to prove that.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right. You know, they got to get documents that a defense attorney, you know, you mean you investigated this guy and you didn't even get a copy of his Microsoft Outlook calendar?
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: How do you know where he was at on such and such -- that type, administerial type stuff. Let me tell you, if there were still targets out there, I can assure you, Jim Casey wouldn't have called me and gave me the green light on making some notifications. I mean, if this thing was still active and – you know, and I – you know, it's funny, because Jim told me on the phone, he goes, you know, you said early on,
David, that there wasn't going to be anything else, he goes, and there isn't. He said, it's kind of like all he had to offer was that, well, everybody does this and -- well, who? Well, I don't know. Everybody. Well, be more specific.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, you and I had that conversation a year ago, and that is that Tom acted like he had the sense of entitlement; like once he got elected, it was your ticket to the gravy train. And it's like, okay, I'm not going to get any more speeding tickets, traffic tickets, you know. I am off the hook --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: He came into my office the week he got elected and said, "Don't you want pictures of my family?"
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: "What for, Tom?" This is my secretary.
"Well, you know, in case they get stopped or anything." "No, commissioner, we don't do that." See, Tom comes from an era -- and I've told you this before. It's like New York cops. New York cops do things in their culture that we -- I would consider corrupt --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Because -- but to them --
GEORGE MCCLURE: It's just part of it.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: It's part of it. I mean, you know, when I was growing up up there, you know, gambling wasn't a crime. I mean, everybody had football cards and -- I mean, gambling -- and that's why that's such a pernicious thing that the feds have to work on all of the time because it's one of those crimes that's so easy to justify. But we always said, when Daniels came down here from New York, he was pissed because he found out we weren't corrupt. He was fully expecting to have a bag man. And I think Tom -- and, you know. George, I thought -- I've been thinking all night. There were times long before we went to the FBI where I told Tom -- see, I was getting information on Tom early on, and it was the same stuff before you and I ever talked. It was very similar type stuff. And it was -- one was he wanted to do something with affordable housing. I got word early on that a deal was brokered --
and this is all fourth hand -- that during the election, that Tom got the word to some money people that if they paid him $600,000 and I think gave him a Sonny franchise or some shit up in Georgia, he would withdraw from the race. So this stuff was swirling around him from eight to 10 to 12 different directions. You know, that's what you got to realize. You guys -- your tail hit home because we were sitting there, and there's Bruce there who could honestly say, face to face, this guy, you know, intimated that he wanted to be a consultant after being elected.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, that was my first take, when he said your clients need to hire me as a consultant. You know, it's kind of like, okay, this is just -- that's just too weird.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: But I -- you know, they're going -- there are no more targets, and I didn't -- basically, the -- basically, I had
to call Jim back, you know, because I told him, well, Jim, I want to think about this Sunshine stuff. And I got off the phone, I talked to Joel, we talked about it, I sat and looked real hard about it, and I just said, you know -- and there's probably a lot of people, if they ever found that out, would be very pissed off, because you know it's
going -- it's kind of like, you know, you don't -- you don't -- I mean, you don't gloat over the vanquished and you don't try to take people down out of anger.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right. Well, yeah. Yeah.
That's kind of like developers. I tell them, never let your money get mad, you know. You just got to make the decision based on what's going on and don't let your emotion get in it.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And if I had done that, it would have been out of anger. You know, see I had a --
GEORGE MCCLURE: When did Wanchick first hear about this stuff? SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Wanchick, actually -- now, this is between us, but Wanchick -- actually, the day after -- well, today, really, from me, but the day after Ben Rich got the call from Tom's wife, Ben went in to Tom -- Mike's office and was in a panic.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And, oh, my God, you know, blah, blah, blah. And Mike -- he was a little bit sketchy. Ben was a little bit sketchy, and Mike knows that Ben's crazy. And, at any rate, he knows Ben's crazy, and
then today, you know, after talking to Jim, you know, as a courtesy says -you know, and Mike's a professional. He understands the game. He's -- you know, he's not sharing anything, but he's got to have heads up in the morning.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Sure. Well, did he call you after Ben saw him -- came to see him at --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: No, and he never did. And I asked him that question. I said, Mike, how come you didn't call me? And he said he didn't really -- he didn't give me an answer. Oh, I know what it was. He said --
because I asked him that same question. I said, why didn't you pick up the phone -- not that I could have said anything. He said, Sheriff, he goes, I'll be honest with you, he goes, I was kind of scared. I thought if there was something going on, I didn't want to know anything. I didn't want to be involved in it or know anything about it. See, now, Ben turned around and ran into Bill Proctor somewhere over the weekend --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Ben Rich?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah, and I got word that he looked at Bill Proctor and he said, you need to stay away from Tom Manuel, Dr. Proctor.
And then just -- somebody overheard that, and Proctor just looked at him like he was crazy.
GEORGE MCCLURE: That's funny. I saw Proctor getting a cup of coffee this morning.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Did you?
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And that's where -- that's where I think that little bit of leakage that we had, that's what I'm thinking is where that came from, is Ben had the – had about four days advance notice, I think. Now, he kept it pretty tight. He's very tight with Peter Guinta.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Who? Rich is or --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Well, Rich is, yeah. He's pretty tight with Peter Guinta, and that could be where Peter -- you know, because Peter called me Friday.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Ooh.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I told you that.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, no, you didn't mention Peter, but you said -- well, no. Actually, I'm thinking -- I don't think you mentioned
that. But what I did hear was that Shorelines is calling and saying something like, yeah, we understand that, you know, Commissioner Manuel got elected and – or got arrested in the parking garage.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Where did you hear that, Shorelines?
GEORGE MCCLURE: I think I heard that from Bruce.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: From Bruce Robbins?
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response). And I think he heard it from Eileen, because I think the FBI had gotten a call about, you know, do you know --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah, they did.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Anything about so-and-so getting arrested? And, of course, the truthful answer could be, no, we didn't arrest him, because they haven't arrested him yet.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Well, you know, I had to lie to my buddy, my buddy, Peter Guinta – of course, Peter asked the wrong question, was
he arrested in St. Johns County. No, he wasn't. But the truth is -- it's funny you say that because the Shorelines -- somebody from the Shorelines did call the county attorney's office today and got Pat McCormack, and that's something else you want --
GEORGE MCCLURE: It was a bad day for Patrick McCormack, wasn't it?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: It must have been because somebody in the media -- because even when Bruce called -- Bruce Maguire called me today, it was -- it was two people in the media. And I'm starting to think -- I'm
starting to think one of two things: One is that -- not that's it's important. One is, I was mystified and, you know, who knows who was at the restaurant and saw what. Who knows. But what I found out is that Ben had four or five days notice. He just must have told some people that were tied into the papers. I don't think Ben -- now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think Ben would have reached out to Peter because he's not proud of it because Tom is his wonder --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. He's his buddy. Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You know, but I -- you know, all of that's --
GEORGE MCCLURE: I think that it purely boils down to somebody saw something going on in the parking lot. It's too bad they didn't, you know, move around the corner of the building or down the street or something like that.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah, but –
GEORGE MCCLURE: But somebody must have seen something and said, "Isn't that Tom Manuel?" And, "God, what are they doing there?" You now, "He's being led away?" I mean, he wasn't in handcuffs or anything, I don't think.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Well, the thing that caught my ear was, when Bruce said it today, he said the reporter said at a place in Duval County.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Well, quite frankly, I had forgotten where it took place. I think he told me Neptune Beach or --
GEORGE MCCLURE: No. It was at the restaurant called Giovanni's, which is right in Jacksonville Beach.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. And I had kind of put that in the back of my mind, so whoever had that had some pretty good damn information.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And it might have been -- you know, I mean, there's very few places I can go where people don't know me. I mean, Tom's been in the damn newspaper an awful lot lately, so --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Oh, yeah. His picture has been on the front page of the Times-Union.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You know, somebody -- we got a dispatch today to his house in Ponte Vedra, the fire department did, because his mother-in-law's boyfriend fell down the stairs in the house. So I was on edge -- I was on the edge of my seat for about 15 minutes until we found out --
GEORGE MCCLURE: What was going on, yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: We didn't know what the hell was -- I'm serious. I don't --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Just so you know that I'm not a total goody goody, do you want to know my evil thought? And you're free to claim this as your own. Here's my new line. You ready?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Tom Manuel, a waste of a heart.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: A waste of a heart. You do have a vicious side to
you, George.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Isn't that cruel? I mean, the answer is that he talks about how he was brought back from the dead --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: He was on a mission --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And he was given a 19-year-old heart or something like that.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, you know, it's too bad you didn't give it to somebody who wasn't a crook.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: No shit. You know, and I'll tell you something else, Joe Fullmeyer (phonetic) told me years ago, he said, David, he said, don't cry over other people's self-inflicted wounds. And you know something, Tom had a lot of -- you know, if you remember, the FBI dragged and dragged and dragged on this thing. He had plenty of opportunity to think about what he was doing. He had plenty of opportunity to get right. And the simple fact of the matter is, I mean, he was so brazen that he did it in --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Oh, yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: A restaurant.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You know, so he --
GEORGE MCCLURE: You know, 60 grand, boom.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And every time -- and every time the silly-ass Record put him on the front page of the paper, he was more and more bullet proof.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Ironically, the night that that happened at the restaurant, the night it went down, which was, what, last Thursday night --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Tom called me at about four o'clock, and it was -- it was light banter, with no real purpose.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: He had come to our awards banquet. And I got off the phone and I said, you know, that's just him wanting to hear me one time to see if he could pick up anything in my voice or -- you know what I mean? "Well, I figure if I can call the Sheriff directly, everything's okay." Well, it wasn't okay. And, you know, I don't think anybody --
I think the only person that's going to come out of this hurt is Tom Manuel. And that's the way that it should be. Everybody else -- me, to you, to Bruce, to our friends in Arlington, everybody – if you think about it, George, everybody did what we were sworn to do. All of us did
what we were sworn to do, no more, no less. And all of us stepped up. The only person that didn't do what he was supposed to do was Tom Manuel, and he's going to have to pay the price.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Right.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And -- but, you know, there's going to be --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, I tell you, the only thing that, you know, worries me about what his scope was -- and, of course, he may have
been just wrapped up in his ego, but he was saying things to Bruce at these dinners about, we're going to make millions. I mean, this wasn't a moment of weakness from somebody with health and financial difficulties
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I know.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And whatever --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I know.
GEORGE MCCLURE: He -- I think he had this idea that he was smarter than all the rest of us --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And he knew some way to parlay public office --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Into making a pile of dough.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And, you know -- I was just going to say, you know, I'm ready to go back to where county commissioners make 10 grand a year
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And they keep their own
jobs –
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And they show up every two weeks for about four hours and provide some guidance on what goes on.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That is exactly what -- that's exactly what needs to happen. And, quite frankly, these commissioners should not be meeting with people that have issues coming before them. I think that they should have staff to do that.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yep. You know, I've been willing to do that and they've been saying, you know, you don't give up talking to commissioners. My only fear in that whole process is that there are commissioners who will only talk to the people who oppose a project, you know.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right. That's true, too.
GEORGE MCCLURE: The neighbors call up and, you know, I'm going to go visit my neighbors -- and if we could all trust them to say, you
know what, I'm going to wait until the hearing and hear it, and, I'm sorry, don't talk to me about that, that's on my calendar, and if you have something to say to me, please show up at the hearing on
February 16th and I'll be happy to hear what you have to say, but, you know, we need to do this in a public proceeding.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Absolutely.
GEORGE MCCLURE: But they won't do that. They'll go, oh, yeah, you're right, and, yeah, I'm on your side.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And, you know, it's just -- you're exactly right, and we need to go back to the days where they're not camped out at that office all day long --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Getting in everybody's business.
GEORGE MCCLURE: I told you, the next guy – you know, when they ran on the platform that I'll be your full-time county commissioner, that's a good enough reason for me to vote against them.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That's exactly right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: If you got a guy like Michael Wanchick who is a -- is a really competent professional, you know what, set policy and
let him do his job.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Abso- -- hey, the board of directors at Microsoft aren't at -- aren't at -- they're not at headquarters every day.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. They don't show up to the guy and say, oh, okay, can you tell me why you're not doing this.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Or why are you in the company car at home.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Right. Exactly. That's exactly right. And that's what they've got -- you know, I hate to say it because I'm anti-charter government because of this -- the way that it came about, but that is one of benefits of charter government. You can't get that set where you have a strong county manager like we have in the city -- quite frankly, the way it works in the city.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, it will be interesting --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I mean, and --
GEORGE MCCLURE: It will be interesting to see whether -- I mean, the smartest thing, if there is any statesmen on that board that would -- what they need to do is, somebody needs to rise from his seat in two weeks and say, you know, we need to take a time-out. We need to take the divisiveness of this charter off the agenda, off the ballot. We need to take all -- you know, any things that we're discussing that people are up in arms about, you know, who's sticking it to whom, and let's wait until we get through the election, wait until we get --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Isn't it too late for somebody to do that?
GEORGE MCCLURE: I don't know. I don't know.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You know, I agree with you. And, quite frankly, quite frankly, that's exactly what should happen. And -- but, you
know, I got thinking back on Tom. You know, when that whole McCormack came up with him riding in his car, I told -- I warned Tom. You know, I had forgotten that. Tom told me that at my office, that -- he was
trying to impress me with how much he knew Paul McCormack, like I gave a shit. I looked at Tom and I said, Tom, that's inappropriate.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Uh-huh (affirmative response).
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I said, someone's going to say something.
But he was bulletproof, he was invincible, and -- and -- and he just – in the media. Every time you turned around he's on the front page of the paper. "David, I was in Trend Magazine twice."
GEORGE MCCLURE: Oh, I know. I know. He was
all over that. "And let me tell you how many times I've been on the editorial page and the Times-Union wrote this."
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I would love -- I would love to hear -- I would love to hear those tapes. I'll bet you -- I'll bet those agents
couldn't believe what they were dealing with.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, I'll tell you what, David -- and I said it earlier in our conversation and I say just -- this just as friend to friend, and that is that, you know as the chief law enforcement officer of the county, that when this thing busts, you're going to get 19-zillion phone calls from the media --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: And the answer is, this is a matter in which I -- which I monitored and which I was aware of --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That's exactly right.
GEORGE MCCLURE: But it was important for it to be handled outside the county. I provided the support and information that I was required, but this is their case. I'm awfully sorry that this happened and --
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. Yeah.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Period.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: You just took my words out of my mouth.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. I mean, and as far as any -- anything in terms of candidates or stuff like that, I mean, if the governor calls you and says, David, what do you think about A versus B, give them your opinion, but if people think you're being king maker, it's a bad idea for you.
Are you there?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. Can you hear me?
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Can you hear me?
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah. I can now.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I'll even go a step beyond that. I'm not even going to let on that it initiated from me --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: That I handed it over to the feds. But here's my thought is, it's -- it's a -- you know, when he's indicted, it's a sad day for this county. It's time for us to move on. This is -- or, actually, tomorrow it will be, "This is an active investigation. The FBI is the lead agency. And other than to say that it is an active investigation and that Mr. Manuel is a target of the investigation, I have no other information."
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: And I can't release --
GEORGE MCCLURE: When it's done, though, they're going to be back at you.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Yeah. Yeah, when they're done. And I'm not going to get into that role because that's not my job. I did my job, and my job was --
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: To investigate a potential crime or cause it to be
investigated, and who gets picked and how they get picked, you know, obviously, I care so much about this county I don't want to see another Tom Manuel, but I got my own problems.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I mean, I got six other people and -- with a shrinking budget, and the crime rate ain't going down. So I –
GEORGE MCCLURE: Yeah.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: -- I don't have time for political machination.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Well, listen. I've got my son in from New York City, and I'm going – he and his brother came down, so I'm going to hang with him for a little while.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: Are you going to take some time off?
GEORGE MCCLURE: No. I got too much to do. I am jammed with stuff. I don't even think I'm going to get a vacation this summer.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: I'm going to bug you and give you updates, if you want to call me in the evening or anything.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Okay. Well, listen, I know you're going to get 40-zillion phone calls, and so, please call me any time you want.
And it's -- you know, it gets kind of busy, so if I can't take the call right then, particularly given the nature of our discussion, please understand I'm not dissing you by saying, David, can I call you back?
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: George, I had tremendous respect for you before this started and it's only grown since we've began, and I appreciate -- I appreciate everything you've done.
GEORGE MCCLURE: Okay. Good enough, David. Ditto.
SHERIFF DAVID SHOAR: All right, buddy. Take care.
GEORGE MCCLURE: See you. Bye.
(CD ends.)
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